Use Your Gifts To Chase Career Fulfillment – With Marcus Sheridan

Here's A Full Transcript Of The Full 30 Minute Interview

Lisa: [0:07] You're listening to Lead Through Strengths, where you'll learn to apply your greatest strengths at work. I'm your host, Lisa Cummings. I gotta tell you, whether you're leading a team or leading yourself, it's hard to find something more energizing and productive than using your natural talents every day at work. So today, you're going to hear from one of the coolest guys around. One of the reasons I think he's pretty cool is he uses goofy phrases like I do. He talks about things like ‘dang!’, and I've heard him say things drive him bonkers. So he uses this very human language in business that I find so many people are afraid of. So we'll talk about that humanity in business communication today.

He also has really great business perspective, you might know him as the sales lion, we'll get him to roar today. He's an expert on digital sales and marketing. He's really great at content marketing, and inbound marketing, and making 50 videos in one day. And because so many of you listeners are b2b, corporate marketing people, you'll really appreciate that he also has real-life business experience that goes beyond marketing. So he owns a company called River Pools and it's both the business to consumer side of a swing pool business, and also the b2b manufacturing side.

So here we go, we're going to take a dip into the waters of the brilliant mind of Marcus Sheridan. So welcome, Marcus.

Marcus: [1:35] Thank you. That was great. And I feel very welcome. And I'm excited to take that dip. And hopefully I'll say something today that has some value to your audience. So I'm thrilled to be here.

Lisa: [1:47] I think they are gonna love dipping into how you've found your strengths. One thing I hear from people often when they talk about you is how genuine you are and how you seem like that self-actualized, fully there guy. So how did you figure out what your gifts are?

Marcus: [2:05] I think from a very early age, I just, whatever reason, was very honest with myself, almost like I was more of the observer, when with myself or with others. And that ended up serving me really, really well in life. Let me give you one example. I think one of my gifts is that I can explain complex things in a way that a large group of people, an audience, or an individual can understand them. And it's because I never had the goal. When I, or never have the goal. When I'm speaking like either on this podcast or in front of 1000 people, I don’t have the goal to sound smart.

What I'm really thinking about the whole time, is what is going through their mind right now. Like what is….are they getting it? Do their eyes, do their….does their body, does their face, say that whatever I just said is clear to them. And it really, really bothers me if it's not, and this happened really early.

For example, when I was younger, even in elementary school, I can remember a teacher would explain something and I would look around the class just for some reason I was interested in the audience. And I would see the student, the students, certain ones, they didn't get it. And the teacher would keep going. And I thought it was appalling. Like, how can you continue to communicate if you know somebody just doesn't understand the thing. And so for some reason, I was just born with that and it has served me, as I said, really, really well.

Lisa: [3:45] Oh, you just made me think of so many things. So there's always the obvious where you have the appalling moment that your teachers talking about where they just don't get it, you can tell what those faces look like. But then I'm also thinking about the middle ground.

So a manager who's trying to read an employee and think about how are they responding right now? What are they thinking? Or likewise, somebody is off talking to a peer about a project and they're trying to read, ‘is this person really with me’? Now? I feel like the middle ground is really tough. And instantly as you started describing the teacher, I started thinking about the other day. I went to a Buddy Guy concert. So blues legends. It's amazing or at this huge concert and people are really into it. And they turned the spotlight because he likes to play his guitar through the audience. And so I was able to watch the audience reaction to him walking through playing his guitar. And I saw a huge swath of people that were just making this deadpan face back at him and I was thinking, ‘how can you be giving that back to him’? ‘Where is your jam face’?

And so I'm curious when you're giving a speech because I know that happens sometimes you get the, you know, the ‘it's they're not nodding and fully in there’. You get those people and then you get the ‘I'm lost, I need a little more help’. But what about the middle ground? How do you read that? And how do you really tune into? Because I do think you have some superpower, and you're tuned in ability?

Marcus: [5:10] Yeah. So when they're in the….when they are in that tweener period, that is a dangerous place, because you might think you're killing it and in fact, you're not right. Or you might think that you're failing, when in fact, they're very much into the thing. I think, for me the way that I deal with this issue other than natural body language, because I'm very, very much into just watching, ‘Are they leaning in or are they leaning back? Are their eyes looking at me? Are they looking down or are they looking up? Each one has its own meaning, right? It has its own elements.

In sometimes it's usually if they're looking down, I've got a problem, I got a problem. Usually, if they're looking at me, it's good if they are smiling. If they're looking at me blankly, I have problem. I have a problem. If they're looking up, but they're smiling, it's because whatever I just said, made them think about something personal in their life. When, that's huge when. Usually looking up no matter what, while you're speaking, is positive because they're very much thinking about what you just said.

In other words, if somebody is not with you at all, and they're thinking about ‘what am I going to do for work today’?, usually they're not looking up. They could be looking left, or they could be looking down, but they're not looking up. Up is that reflective place where you want them to be as a speaker. It's a great place. It's a great place. Okay.

Now, in terms of… the other way that I deal with, though, is what I can control, which is asking questions. And I think the art of the question is one of the great lost arts. It really, really is. And when people understand how to ask questions the right way, it's absolutely amazing what you can teach, without actually saying anything at all, other than the question itself. And I think it's our job as communicators, as teachers. And this is very much either with my kids. I have four kids, right? So either my four kids, or if it's an audience of thousand, or I'm in a workshop with, you know, a company, it is my job, to get them to discover what I'm trying to tell them before I actually tell them. And the only way that that can occur is if I am asking questions that force them to look in the mirror that is life in themselves, and say, ‘you know what, this is how I feel this is how I am’.

And they may not have looked at that mirror before in that way. But because I asked the right question they do. They do. And it's just goes back to the simple reality that everybody wants to feel like it was their thing. It was their idea that it was not forced upon them. That because they did the digging, because they did the work they have concluded this and that. And this is why debating politics on Facebook doesn't ever convert people because they didn't discover it for themselves. It's everything's forced, forced, forced.

And so I think the great communicators, managers, especially, they understand how to write, to ask just the right question in the right moment, that allows the person to discover what it is that they're trying to say.

Lisa: [8:29] I love that so much. I just got a book called Humble Inquiry, and it's about that deep listening.

Marcus: [8:36] Nice title.

Lisa: [8:37] Isn't that a nice title? Yeah, I guess it's, it's so far, it's very much about that, like really getting to the the questions and getting people think. And I like the practical elements of what you raised as well, just knowing by the way they're looking up, etc.

Now, alright, I want to change direction because you really prompted me on this concept of looking in the mirror. And I think that you ask a lot of questions of yourself regularly that can tell you're really reflective when you look at yourself, about your career and where you're headed. So you made me think of a story you shared the other day about….basically, you were calling yourself a dumb, dumb kid. You said..no, you said you did something dumb that you…

Marcus: [9:20] have called myself a dumb, dumb many times. So you did use the right vernacular there.

Lisa: [9:25] Love it. “Dang”, “you're driving me bonkers” and “dumb, dumb”. We've got three good phrases together. So you were sharing was how you had scheduled yourself, over-scheduled yourself and you were running around like a chicken with your head cut off. And you realize you needed to stop and breathe deep and be sure that you're paying attention to and enjoying the life around you. And a lot of my listeners struggle with doing that and with prioritization in general and many times they're over scheduled because they think it's what their job description requires and how do you even choose tasks and meetings and opportunities to say no to when they're imposed by other people.

So with all this deep reflection that you do, how do you keep your yeses aligned to the things that bring you energy and fulfillment in life?

Marcus: [10:13] Is it not the great challenge, I think maybe, especially in the digital age? It is. I think one of the greatest skills that we can personally develop or help others develop, is the ability to politely say, ‘no’. It's something that I have been working on and thinking a lot about, for probably the last five or six years. And I think it happened when I was a pool guy. And today, I'm just a silent partner with River Pools. But, you know, I was, I've had that company now for, for 16 years. And I realized that the greatest, my greatest day, as an owner of a swimming pool company, was not when I realized that we sold, quote pools that say, but when I realized what we were not. Because the moment I realized what we were not, was the moment I was willing to say no to the wrong customers, and be outrageously honest and transparent about who we were and we're not a good fit for, which is something that most businesses don't do.

You realize 90% of all businesses, at least on their website and in their messaging, they talk about who they are and what they do. Nobody, and I mean, nobody's less than 1%, talk about who they're not a good fit for. And when you tell somebody you're not a good fit for, it's, it makes you dramatically more believable, and attractive to the marketplace, whether the marketplace be one or many.

And I think this same mentality, incredibly permeates our personal lives. And so when I have been at my peak states is when I was most keenly aware of what I did not want to do, what did not make me happy. And trying to be very, very honest with myself in those moments, and learning also to be okay, with certain things.

For example, it's okay, that my brand isn't Seth Godin, or Gary Vaynerchuk for now, because when it comes to my wife, and kids, I'm killing it. I'm really, really killing it. They're not saying killing it in an arrogant way. I'm just saying that, I feel like they feel like I'm present. I'm a major part of their life. Not to say that that isn't the case with, you know, Seth, or Gary or anybody else. But I just feel like they know that for me. And so I think it's a…I think it all goes back to knowing what you love, what you don't love what you are and what you are not. And for me, I know what I am primarily. I'm a father, I am a spouse first, and I am an entrepreneur/leader second. And in I was put teacher in there, and everything just trickles down from knowing that.

Lisa: [13:16] I love how, when you started, I was thinking, Okay, so and who you are and who you're not, it sounded very much focused on first knowing what the business was and what the business was not. And I love how you ended it with you personally, who you are and who you're not. And even that exercise that you talked about on the website that's missing from so much messaging, I think it's probably missing from a lot of people in their career, just the thought process, what am I? And what am I not? What do I want to be known for? And what do I want out of my career, maybe even where I…

Marcus: [13:51] You got to be so great at saying no too. And when in part of saying no, is not following trends. And let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.

For the longest time, I'm Seth Godin has not been, he has not had comments open on his blog. And he realized he's got one of the most popular personal blogs right in the world. And he realized early on that if he had the comment stream going, that,

1. A) it would really be a major distraction to him, right? And he wanted to be lost in his thoughts, not the thoughts of everybody else.
2. B) It was going to influence him in a way so that he would be writing for comments, not for Seth Godin. And he was honest enough to not only admit that to himself, but to other people. And people chastise that. They called it a selfish move. They didn't like it here and there. Do you realize since then, that was probably he did that like six years ago, six or seven years ago? He said no comments. Do you realize how many people said that was a dumb thing? That wasn't very communal, or that wasn't very kind, have also turned off comments. Now that might sound like a little thing. But that's why he really had a self-awareness that was at a very high level before everybody else. He said, I'm not going to get on Twitter, because I can't be great at Twitter. And I feel like it's going to be a distraction. So he just said, ‘No Twitter for me’. See, I love people like that. And that's the business sense. But this is a major leader in, you know, does anybody not know who Seth Godin is now, because he wasn't on Twitter? I don't know. But he just doesn't care. He doesn't care. And he became huge without that worry, that's a big deal. Because most of us are constantly under this barrage, of guilt, self-guilt of ‘I need to do that thing because I've been told by society, I've been told by my marketing expert, my branding expert, my digital expert, my this my that, whoever my manager, that if I don't do these things, I'm not going to be this’, which is a mistake.

Lisa: [15:48] What's something you can think of in your life that you've said ‘no’ to? And it was difficult for you to say no to.

Marcus: [15:54] Um, I think that…I think there's all different. There's all these things that we have to say no to early on as quickly as we can. So from the business point, it's very, very easy.

Let me give you example of River Pools and Spas. So we have the most traffic swimming pool website in the world. And everybody says, ‘man with all that traffic and influence and clout you should be…you could really do this, Marcus, you know. You really should consider selling concrete pools to…you really should do this, that, that, right? And so luckily, I read Jim Collins book, like you probably have Good To Great like 10-15 times. And I said, ‘Okay, what's my hedgehog concept’?

I want to be the best teacher in the world when it comes to fiberglass pools, and I want to install them as well, to install and manufacture them as well. That was it. That was our…that was our hedgehog concept. That was a thing that I felt like we could be the best in the world, the best teachers and installers/manufacturers.

And so when it came time to do a concrete, what people saying we should do concrete, I said, ‘No, we're not going to play there above ground pools, not gonna play their retail. We're not going to play there. We're not going to do that’. This is the one thing that we are going to do. And that does take time, because you do need to experiment sometimes with the thing to realize it, because it was a huge move that I made as a business.

Now, there's other small moves that we make all the time. Let me just give you a silly example, again, on a professional level. But when it comes to speaking, I don't speak when people are holding silverware ever. It's just a rule that I have. And there's a simple reason for it. And of course, you know, the reason. But a lot of people would think about this. When I ask, when I speak, I ask a lot of questions, as we've already talked about. And well, when you have food in your mouth, you don't want to answer questions. Also, because it's a very engaging style, you don't want people to be focused on the food and worried about is this guy going to come call on me. It's just it creates a bad dynamic. So I've turned down $10,000, you know, $15,000 gigs.

If I had to speak in front of, if I had to do the luncheon, I was the lunch speaker, I just said no, I just said no. And that has served me very, very well. Because I did it one time before I made the commitment, and it blew up in my face. And I said I won't do that again. And so you have to be willing to walk away from money.

Lisa: [18:16] I think it's a great idea. I think that a lot of people in their corporate careers, have this experience where the job title sounds really cool or the team is appealing, or the culture of the company is appealing. And they want to say yes, but if they look at the practicalities, like use the metaphor of the silverware, then they would realize they should say no. But it feels so difficult to say no, because the money is good or the title’s good or the opportunities are great for whatever other reason that they're not thinking about those, those other factors that would lead them to turn it down. You

Marcus: [18:51] You know, I like Chris, I like Chris Brogan’s definition of success. I always fall back on that because I think it's so good. He says, he said “Success is being able to say ‘yes’ when you want to say yes and ‘no’ when you want to say ‘no’ - a very simple way of looking at success. But I've tried to model my life, model my life after that, because it's so very powerful to me.

Lisa: [19:15] Well, I like this guy, Marcus Sheridan's definition that I heard. I like Chris Brogan, too. And I'll say, the other day I heard you say it's not just about success, it's about fulfillment. Maybe not a definition, but a difference

Marcus: [19:33] Big difference. But there's a huge difference, right? Huge difference. There's a lot of people that you and I think are successful. But if you get them in the quiet of the night, when they talk to themselves, they're outrageously and sadly unfulfilled and they feel empty inside. They might have a full bank account but they're, they're yearning for something and that's where the rubber meets the road. Because you have to almost say, what are my goals? And then you have to say which ones are going to make me feel successful to the outside world, and to myself, because they kind of dictate that and which ones are going to make me feel fulfilled. Now, when you make the two different lists, it's interesting how very different they can sometimes look. And so your fulfillment list is dramatically more important than your success list.

Lisa: [20:33] Did you ever find yourself feeling empty, and you felt like you're out of whack on that list?

Marcus: [20:40] I think that we all go through different levels of that. You should know when it happens, it’s funny, because this theme keeps coming up. Usually, it happens when we say yes for the wrong reasons. And so it's, it's a project. And it could be a big or small project. And it could be a personal, professional project. But you said yes. But your gut said, ‘you know what, Marcus, this really isn't the strong play for you right now. Come on, man’. But you say ‘yes’, for a variety of reasons. It sounded like a great idea at the time. But in reality, it was funny about most great ideas at the time. Usually most great ideas at the time, we knew at the time, that there was something amiss, there was something wrong. But we still said yes, because it just, it made a lot so much sense.

But then once we get into the thick of the thing, that's when we feel unfulfilled. And we're like, ‘Why the heck am I doing this?’ And that's absolutely happened to me in different degrees. And I mean, there's, there's, there's big and there's small ones. But usually, it's when I take on a job. I think I can handle it in the moment. And it blows up in my face, like the one that you mentioned, when we were having a side conversation is, and I recently I spoke in the Silicon Valley. It was the first time that I'd spent significant time in us in the San Francisco Bay Area. And for some reason, like there's not a lot of conferences there so I don't, I don't go there very much for travel. And so I was there for four days. And I literally was working with clients who are speaking from eight in the morning to like six or seven every single day. I didn't see anything. I saw people that I was working with. And I saw the hotel room. And that was it. And it was incredibly unfulfilling the trip

Lisa: [22:31] As you're sharing this example and and talking about what you say ‘yes’ to, well and what you say ‘no’ to, you made me think of how you had shared with me something that you might be saying ‘yes’ to was kind of a long view. And I think it brings an interesting perspective here because it's not just yes and no, in the moment, it's about listening to the things that you're moving toward, and not just the stuff you're running away from, And that it's not just one moment by moment.

So a lot of my listeners feel this thing tugging at them in a career transition or an interest they want to go follow. Because they know they don't want to have these big career regrets. And they're also really scared to make leaps because they have family to support or big kid bills, or whatever those things are. And I know you've been talking really openly about evolving into new areas of content and expertise. And I love that you're looking at it like a big on ramp, like a long span of time. And you're okay with that long-term career evolution.

So can you talk a little bit about that, like a mid-career, corporate professional, they're feeling stuck. And I know you've been having these tugs, and you're really well known in the space of content marketing, especially with it seems like a big risk, why would you start to step away from that? Should you dip your toe in a pool and another pool? So tell us how you're getting comfortable in that fear and how you're approaching it.

Marcus: [24:01] Well, I've always felt strongly that it's impossible for you to see even remotely where the trail goes, until you start walking down the trail. It just doesn't work any other way. And so I have been prompted for a while that where I'm not meant to be in 10 or 15 years is slowly talking about digital sales and marketing. And if the prompting is there, it means the seed is there. If the seed is there and has been planted, well, then it just doesn't go away, I have found. Unless you do something about it. So you have to nourish it, some allow it to grow and then see if it's ultimately a good seed, right.

And so in my case, I have felt for a while, that the thing that I'm supposed to be talking more about is the intersection between business in life, personal and professional. I know from an early age, probably, maybe 20, 21, I fell in love with Jim Rohn. For those that haven't heard him, it's R O H N. And he was the original mentor of Tony Robbins. Tony Robbins worked for Jim Rohn before he became Tony Robbins. And most people know Tony Robbins, less on, Jim Rohn. But he really was the the father of personal development, at least during the 1980s. And then Tony, mid 90s and on, really started to just become a household name.

He was magical Rohn was because he very, very much talked about business, while at the same time talking about personal. And so you left there and you really did want to become a better person, a better boss, and a potentially, a business visionary. That's, that's the impact he had on his audiences. And so, in order for me to get to that point, I know that I have to start playing with the thing, go into the sandbox and start to create. So that's why I started one of my video documentary podcast series called The Balance. So The Balance is, basically I do one thing, a week with my videographer where we either, he goes on a trip with me, or it's, it's an activity I do at home, and he records it, and we turn it into, we turn into a small story.

So he doesn't follow me around 24/7/365 that we take one trip a week, once a week. And what this has allowed me to do is start to create the art. It forces me to create the message and figure out what the message even is that is this intersection between work and life. That's what Yes, what's called The Balance. It's been incredibly rewarding.

And so the canvas is starting to take shape. I'm starting to see, okay, this is something that's interesting to me. It's the same thing when I'm on stage, what will happen is, there's 90% of the talk that is about business. But you'll notice that there's almost always these days 10% that's about personal or personal development elements. And I’m testing, and literally testing them on the stage. Because I'm figuring out how I feel about them, how I teach them, and how the audience reacts to them. And for me, this is the way that I'm going about it. And it's a… it's probably a process it's going to take anywhere between three to five years is my guess. It could take less, it could take more. Okay. But I'm in the sandbox right now. And I know I'm moving in the right direction. And that's the only thing I'm really worried about. I'm not worried about the speed, because I feel like that undue pressure doesn't make sense. I just know that I'm playing and it's good.

Lisa: [28:05] Yeah. Oh, what a good piece of advice to end on, is being able to jump in the sandbox and let people think about things unfolding and unraveling and over time nurturing a seed. And oh, how cool you let us every time we talk, we get to kick it old school this time. You instantly made me think of the tapes that I used to have in my car as I would drive around listening to Zig Ziglar and Jim Rohn.

Marcus: [28:28] I thought you might say Zig. I thought you might think what a magical little orator he was, wasn't he? He was just so special. He had a way with words that even if you didn't agree with them or not, you couldn't help but to listen, because it was just the way he talked, was so unique and inspiring.

Lisa: [28:43] Helped you with your stinking thinking, you know?

Well, it's been really fun, Marcus. So I want to link to The Sales Lion and The Balance podcast and all those things that are in here. How else can listeners find you?

Marcus: [28:55] Yeah, well, if you want to email me, which I love personal connection, you can email me at [email protected] . And you can certainly find me on Twitter @thesaleslion and just want to make one note that I do have a book called “They Ask, You Answer” at Amazon and it's about becoming the most trusted voice in your space through the power of great teaching to build your business, your brand and ultimately your bottom line.

Lisa: [29:24] I love it. We will definitely link to that and I can give you a shout out for that as well. I've heard you speak in so many episodes about the concept of “They Ask You Answer” and I have a whole Evernote filled with things that I'm about to put on my website because I'm finally getting down with the Marcus program on on “Help Help Help Your Customers That Way”.

Well, I know everybody's gonna dig in and go buy “They Ask, You Answer”. Thanks everyone also for listening to Lead Through Strengths. So with that, remember using your strengths makes you a stronger performer at work. If you're putting a lopsided focus on fixing your weaknesses, you're choosing the path of most resistance. So claim your talents and share them with the world.